Theodorea Regina Berry, Ed.D., Vice Provost and Dean of the College of Undergraduate Studies, is joined by her executive assistant Brittany Nsouli for a far-reaching conversation about Dr. Berry’s educational journey, her devotion to education, her advice for students, and why the answer is never “no.”
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Welcome to Academically Speaking. This podcast is designed to provide our listeners with an opportunity to engage with subjects and topics related to student academic success. How we think and what we do is important to how we become citizens of this country and of the world.
Barbara Smith:
Welcome to a special episode of Academically Speaking. Today, we’re turning the tables on Vice Provost and Dean Theodorea Regina Berry, who will be our guest. Dr. Berry serves as the University of Central Florida’s Vice Provost and Dean of the College of Undergraduate Studies, with a tenured faculty appointment as Professor of Curriculum Studies in the College of Community Innovation and Education. She spearheads UCF’s academic policy initiatives and practice for all undergraduate students. And leads university-wide curriculum efforts, while supporting university-wide initiative to advance undergraduate education. Dr. Berry also provides leadership to the College of Undergraduate Studies faculty, and the college’s four degree granting programs, among them, the innovative Bachelor’s of Integrative General Studies. Dr. Berry has published books and numerous book chapters, including States of Grace: Counter stories of a Black Woman in the Academy. She is the lead editor of Latinx Curriculum Theorizing. And lead editor and contributing author of From Oppression to Grace: Women of color and Their Dilemmas Within the Academy. She is also co-editor of the forthcoming text, 20 Years of Curriculum Theorizing JCT 2000 to 2020.
Dr. Berry has been recognized with numerous awards, including the 2021 William H. Watkins Award from the Society of Professors of Education, the 2014 Critics Choice Award, and the 2016 Derrick Bell Legacy Award from the Critical Race Studies in Education Association from the American Educational Studies Association. Dr. Berry was inducted into the Professors of Curriculum Honorary Society in April 2016. As an active member of the community, Dr. Berry’s a founding member of Orlando Women for Good. And is a Diamond Life member of Delta Sigma Theta sorority. She also serves as a delegate for the Metro-Orlando chapter of the National Panhellenic Council. Dr. Berry is also a cantor in her home parish, St. Andrews Catholic community in Orlando, Florida. Now, I’d like to introduce the host for today, Brittany Nsouli, Dr. Berry’s executive assistant.
Brittany Nsouli:
Dr. Berry, tell us about your background.
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Well, I started out in undergraduate school as a music major. I had a major in voice with a secondary instrument in percussion. I played timpani, kettle drums, and bongos. And then, picked up a second major in communications, mass media arts, with an emphasis in radio and newspaper journalism, back when people actually read printed newspapers.
And somewhere along the way I thought, “I need to know more about the science of sound if I’m going to really get into this.” And I ended up taking a physics course around sound. And then, next thing I knew, I had a minor in physics. And then, I ended up, as part of my general education program, we had to take two science courses. And so I took a couple of biology courses around human anatomy. And got really interested in the structure of vocal cords, and how human sound is made, as opposed to the way animals make sound. And so then I took an anatomy and physiology course, and then I took a course on muscle and muscular structures. And next thing I knew, I had a minor in biology.
So I think I’ve been the geeky kid my whole life. And along the way, as someone who was attempting to pay for college, I worked as an RA, and did all kinds of things in student affairs. Was on the lyceum board
for the lecture series for the university, and was a student ambassador for the president’s office, pretty similar to our Presidential Leadership Council. And got into student affairs, when I graduated from college. And that lasted a minute because my patience level at that age was not what it should have been, to deal with young college students. Because I was not that college student who was on the weekend partying and drinking and whatnot. And then people show up for a workshop that I’m doing and they’re hungover, wearing sunglasses. And I’m just annoyed, like, “Why aren’t you here to pay attention? You’re supposed to be here to learn.” And people were just like, “That’s not what college was for.” I’m like, “That’s what college was for me.”
So at some point, I made the decision to go back to graduate school. And it was really largely because I had taken a class my senior year in college on communication theory that talked about this notion of dialogue and the way in which we communicate knowledge. And I was so fascinated and angry at the same time. Fascinated because I was just loving this class like, “I want to know more about this.” Angry because I’m like, “It’s my senior year. Why am I just getting to the good stuff?”
So I decided, at some point, I went back to graduate school because I wanted to study theories connected to knowledge. But I didn’t know what that was at the time. And somebody had to tell me, “That’s really about curriculum theory and curriculum studies. That’s what you really want to know.” And I was like, “Okay, I’m doing that.” Got really fascinated by that. Had a great advisor for my master’s program. Did a master’s degree in interdisciplinary studies in curriculum. So I got to study about the ways in which cultures deal with curriculum and equity issues around knowledge. Did an ed specialist degree in leadership and curriculum and teaching. And led an effort with the Department of Defense Education Activity to integrate diversity into all of the schools in the Heidelberg district in Germany, which was super fun. It was fun for me. Everybody was like, “This is work.” I’m like, “No, let’s do some more.” Some people were looking at me strangely then, like the people were look at me strangely now.
And then, I was in Germany, my dad had passed away, and I was really depressed about that. And so I decided I wanted to come home. And then, I’d started on my doctoral studies in curriculum and social inquiry, which is a combination of curriculum theory and historical philosophical issues in education. Really got fascinated by that. And I got to work with some really great scholars around that. Did a postdoc in Chicago. So this is the moment where people are like, “Wait a minute, you earned a doctoral degree, and then you went back to school?” Like, “Yes.” Because, for me, it was fun. That’s my version of fun. And did a three year postdoc that was awarded by the American Educational Research Association at the University of Illinois, Chicago. Got to work with some really great scholars in that experience.
And I’ve been a professional academic ever since. And really felt like there was a lot I learned. There were a couple of things I would not repeat, if I had the opportunity to go back in time in that time machine that I don’t have. Like taking a tenure track job while you’re writing your dissertation, not a good idea. I did it anyway and it got done.
But yeah, that’s my academic background. And I come from people who really love education. I am a third generation college graduate. My grandmother, whose family emigrated to the United States from The Bahamas, they came here so that they could get an education. And so she was one of the first graduates of Bethune College, back when it was just Bethune College. But, of course, given the generation that she was in, you went to college so that you could find a husband, which is what she did. So she never did anything with her college degree, which as a young person, I thought, “That’s stupid.” But when you think about it in the context of the time that she grew up in, that was acceptable back then. And so I had lots of great people who supported me through my educational journey. And here I am today, annoying more people.
Brittany Nsouli:
Why did you choose to devote your career to education?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
I think some of it was genetic. I think a small piece of it is what we call the family curse. So short story is, my maternal grandfather wanted my mother to go to school for education. And he offered to pay for her to go to college, under the condition that she studied to be a teacher, and that she moved to Virginia, to his hometown, to teach. My mother had no desire whatsoever to live in the south. She was born and raised in Philadelphia. And all she heard were horror stories of black people who lived in the south. So she had no desire. And my grandfather said to her, “You’re going to regret that.” And so, years later, she ends up getting a degree in English, and then she ends up teaching. But then, I end up getting an education. My younger brother ends up getting an education. I have a cousin who’s a dean of a law school. So it’s like, “Wait, how do all of us end up in education? We all started out doing something different.” It’s like it’s the family curse.
But I really do enjoy university environments. I enjoyed it as a college student, and really enjoy it as a professor and as a dean. Because it gives me an opportunity to pass along knowledge and to mentor people in ways that I had the privilege of being mentored. And so I love what I get to do.
Brittany Nsouli:
Will you tell us about your research?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
So as I’ve mentioned, I’m a curriculum studies curriculum theorist. I self-identify as a curriculum philosopher. And my research is really grounded in these two very big questions that most curriculum theorists study. What knowledge is most worth knowing? And who determines what knowledge is most worth knowing? But I’ve placed those two questions in the context of the black experience. And so it is a merger between many of the things that we’ve studied in African American studies. And what we know about curriculum or knowledge construction. And so my research has really focused on the ways in which women of color, and specifically black women, bring their experiences as knowledge into different spaces. And how their experiences have really proven beneficial to the spaces that they enter into.
And so the last major project… There were two major projects I was doing before I came here to Florida, in relationship to my research. And the first of which was a project that involved getting the stories of other black women, who were full professors at institutions, around their educational journey and the kinds of things that they’ve been involved in.
But the second piece really involves some historical archival files that are held at the National Archives on The Freedmen’s Bureau. And the contributions of black women to black education in the reconstruction era. We know that there was a lot of things that happened after the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War ended, in relationship to the education of blacks. And we also know that the federal government was involved in much of that work. But when you read the papers of the superintendents that were assigned to The Freedmen’s Bureau, what we learn is that, when many of those individuals went to visit communities where lots of newly emancipated black people were living, there were schools already established in many of those communities by the time those superintendents arrived in those communities. In part because there were missionary groups, like the Episcopal Church and the Presbyterian Church, that set up schoolhouses in black communities, particularly in the south, to help educate.
But the other part of that had to do with the fact that, once emancipation happened, the individuals who were much more likely to be employed first in those communities were black women, who subsequently took their incomes to build schools. And found people to educate those children in that community. But there is little documentation, or collective documentation, that talks about the ways in which these women contributed to the education of those communities. To include the fact that there were many northern women, who were educated in the north, who moved to the south to teach in those schoolhouses. And how they were able to find these women to come to these spaces and teach was just absolutely phenomenal. And so I’m really still very interested in the history of curriculum. And the people who contributed to the education and, most especially, the curriculum of black people. And more especially, the ways in which black women were instrumental in the education of black people from the very early days of reconstruction to modern contemporary history.
Brittany Nsouli:
You’re a mentor to many students, why?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
They find me. No, here again, I am a huge proponent of something that Mary Church Terrell is known to say. And she has this phrase that a lot of people repeat, “Lift as we climb.” I think it’s really part of my responsibility, as an educated person in the United States, to find a way to reach back to people. And provide them with the kind of support that I’ve been given. But I also find that, particularly in these kinds of spaces in institutions that have large white student populations, that students of color are always looking for someone who looks like themselves to be able to have meaningful conversations with in relationship to their journey.
But, for me, it’s not only just about students of color, it’s about really supporting students who really see themselves trying to achieve something or accomplish something that others might think is impossible to do. Or where they might not necessarily get that support. I’m all for the underdog. I’m like, “You know what? They telling you, you can’t do it. You can do it. We’re going to figure out a way to make this happen.” And so, for me, it’s not ever… The answer for me is never no. The answer might be, “How?” Or the answer might be, “Later.” Or the answer might be, “Let’s try a different route.” But the answer is never no. And so I think that’s part of the reason why many students find themselves so drawn to me to figure out how to get something done. Because I walk into the room with that perspective.
Brittany Nsouli:
What advice would you give to students who are working towards their degrees?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Students working towards their degrees? I would say, first of all, when you choose the degree that you want to do, choose something you want to do and not something that your parents, or your neighbors, or your friends think you should be doing. You have to really want to engage in it. This is not going to be easy work. And you know that. So you have to make the decision that this is what you want to do. And you’re studying the thing that you’re really interested, and excited, and passionate about.
Secondly, don’t be afraid to talk to your professors. We get up in the morning, put our clothes on, just like everybody else. Comb our hair, wash our face, the whole nine yards. We are human beings like everybody else. The difference between us and many of our students is that we’ve traveled the road. But the good news is, because we’ve traveled the road, we can provide advice, and information, and
support. And I have rarely run into any of my colleagues, not to say that there aren’t any out there like this, but I’ve rarely run into any of my colleagues who aren’t willing to help students.
You have to be willing to reach out to them. Understand that college professors are not mind readers. You have to tell them what you want. You have to be willing to speak up on your behalf. Part of navigating college isn’t just showing up for class and doing the work, it’s about understanding how college works. You don’t walk in the door knowing that. You have to be willing to ask questions. And you have to be willing to figure out, “How do things get done? How do I pay my tuition? What if I need a job? What kinds of things should I have on my resume by the time I finish college?” People are willing to answer those questions for you, but you have to be willing to ask the questions. So those are the things that I would put at the top of the list that college students should be willing to do as they pursue their college degrees.
Brittany Nsouli:
Okay. What about the ones contemplating coming to college?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Oh, so I knew this question was coming, and it’s funny, when I saw the question, the first thing that came to my mind, I’ve been watching a Netflix series called Never Have I Ever. If you haven’t seen, it’s really, really good. And it’s the kind of thing that a lot of teenagers would watch. But I find it interesting because it’s about human interactions and family interactions. And one of the things that’s interesting about this season of this episode is that the primary characters are now preparing to go to college. And they’re dealing with some real issues. They all thought they were all ready. And as they move along their senior year, they’re figuring out how ready they’re not. And so, now, they’re dealing with all their insecurities.
And it’s okay to be nervous about college because it’s a whole new world, especially when you spend four years in high school. You get to your senior year, and you’re top dog, and you know everything, and everybody knows you. And you’re getting ready to go into a space where nobody really cares about who you are. You better show up for class and do your work. And so, now, watching these episodes where these young people were visiting college campuses, and they are overwhelmed. People seem so much smarter. Classes seem so intense. There’s so much to do. And nobody’s telling you what you are supposed to do. Nobody’s making sure that you’re going to class. Nobody’s telling you what clubs or organizations you should join. You’re having to figure this out all on your own.
And it’s scary, and it should be, because the unknown is a little scary. But it’s okay for it to be a little scary. Here, again, it goes back to some of the advice I would give to students who are in college now. Talk to people. Talk to your college counselors, talk to other students. If you have the opportunity to go on a college tour, talk to the other college students. Ask real questions. Don’t just ask about, oh, what fraternity or sorority you’re in, or what parties are going on, and where’s the party dorm, and all that sort of thing. Ask about your classes. How much time do you spend studying? Can you ask the instructors questions? How do you organize your schoolwork? Because organizing your schoolwork on your own is different than the high school teacher who is telling you, “Tomorrow your paper is due.
Don’t forget.” Because the college professor isn’t going to do that. But ask questions, and ask questions of college professors. Ask questions of college students. Ask questions of adults who work on college and university campuses.
Now, the good news is that, unlike when I was in college, college students now have this wonderful thing called the internet, or as some people call it, the interwebs. And there’s a lot of information on the internet in relationship to various colleges and universities, different kinds of programs, to help prepare
you for college. Different kinds of even webinars and seminars on the internet, but YouTube videos about different things in preparation for college. Lots of ways to learn about how to navigate the college experience.
Also, be true to who you are. Not every single student graduating from high school is ready for college. And if you know that about yourself, don’t make yourself go just because all your friends went and you feel left out. Not everybody is ready at 18, 19 years old to go away to college and be on their own. If that’s not the thing that you’re ready for, think about your options. Go to a local community college.
And especially here in Florida, where you can do that, and then transfer all those credits, because we have common numbering system. Think about whether or not you want to take a gap year and travel, if you have the resources to do that. Or to work somewhere else, or to save money. There’s a lot of different things to consider. But don’t feel like you have to go to college right out of high school if you don’t feel ready.
That’s one of the things that comes up in this show, Never Have I Ever. One of the guys, who’s a primary character of the show, he’s a year ahead of most of the other cast members. He goes off to college, and he feels so out of place. And he stayed maybe two weeks, and came back. He hadn’t even done any work yet. But he wasn’t ready. And by the time, we’re somewhere in the show where they’re close to graduating, he has now figured out, “Maybe now I’m ready for school.” He wasn’t ready a year earlier. So it’s important to understand who you are in relationship to that. And make a decision that’s in your best interest. So that’s my two pieces of advice. I know I have a lot to say.
Brittany Nsouli:
Now, for the fun part of our conversation, the speed round. I’m going to ask you a few questions and you’ll answer with the first thing that pops up in your head. Are you ready?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
I’m ready.
Brittany Nsouli:
Okay. What’s your favorite color?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Red.
Brittany Nsouli:
Red.
What’s your favorite song?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Wow. Okay, so favorite song right now is… I’ve been listening to two. I’m a big fan of the Bach Brandenburg concertos. And I listen to them over and over and over again. I started listening to them when I was 15. So for those people who are not necessarily big fans of classical music, it’s a really great way to get an introduction to classical music that’s soothing. And it’s not overwhelming. And it’s light and fun. It’s the kind of thing that you might hear on Bridgerton. But my favorite, let me see. So my favorite song right now, I really like this artist called Ledisi. And she released a single, a couple of years
ago, called Add to Me. And right now, it’s speaking to me. If you listen to it, you might know why. So that’s my favorite song.
Brittany Nsouli:
What’s your favorite movie?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Okay, so we have to first say, I’m going to put in a disclaimer and say, when I think about favorite movie, it’s always going to be Star Trek and Star Wars of any kind. So if we take Star Trek and Star Wars off the plate, I’m going to say The Best Man and The Best Man Holiday. Those two were like, especially Best Man Holiday, was a tear-jerker. It was funny, but it was a tear-jerker, so that’s it.
Brittany Nsouli:
What’s your favorite book?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Oh, okay. So I have a favorite series of books. I’m a huge Bell Hooks fan. And she did a teaching trilogy that I really like. But I really love her love trilogy. And in the love trilogy, there’s a book that she wrote called All About Love. And she talks about the various forms of love, our love for our family members, and our community, and our romantic relationships. And it is just so beautifully written. But she was just a beautiful writer anyway. So yes, that’s my favorite book.
Brittany Nsouli:
What’s your favorite TV show?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Oh, Star Trek Discovery. And I cannot wait to see the next series.
Brittany Nsouli:
If you could have dinner with three people, living or dead, who would they be and why?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Ooh, okay, three people. I would say Bell Hooks, for sure, and we recently lost her last year, Oprah Winfrey, and my dad.
Brittany Nsouli:
Why?
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry: Why?
Brittany Nsouli:
Yeah.
Dr. Theodorea Regina Berry:
Okay, so first of all, I’m going to start with my dad. So my dad passed away in 1998. And we used to have these great conversations about all kinds of stuff. He served in the military for 20 years and worked for the postal service. And these conversations were always about these people he encountered that were just really off the wall, oddball kind of people. And it would make me laugh all the time. So I would love to have one more of those conversations with him. Oprah Winfrey, because she’s just so connected. If I talk to her, I pretty much know everybody. I could probably quit my job after talking to her. And then Bell Hooks, because she’s just a brilliant mind. She was so smart, and she could write about anything.
She wrote probably over 50 books in her lifetime. And I’m just in awe, just reading her stuff just puts me in awe. So I would love to talk to her.
Brittany Nsouli:
Dr. Berry, thank you for participating in today’s conversation. I’m Brittany Nsouli.
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